Manga, the good, the bad and it never stop!

The world of manga is great and wonderful but filled with many problem, mostly in america. Wanna-be critics, Dbz like characters, the classic boy meet girl and everything change because of it. OEL or orignal english language manga, too many of them are like that trying to be like the japanese. See I don't have a problem with that, it the story they come up with. I would like to see some real character for once, not character mimicing other japanese characters! Now I'm not trying to sound all high and mighty, but I'm just sick of reading the same stuff and sick of hearing from people who don't know the difference between fan-service and the true story. It no wonder to some, manga seem like a failed art of story-telling in america. I read some comment posted on other websites posted by those who think they're critic. When they have no idea what it take to be critic and what they say is just stupid and the remedy to fix it, it's even worse!

Now please don't think I'm saying that any of your project are terrible or cliche. I believe in them and have high hope for every single one of them. Now I posted this to calm myself down a little and to use this to keep pushing me forward, I don't know maybe it can help you too. There I'm done!

Word.
`Art`was once about having something to say, now it`s about copying what you like. People might as well spend some time figuring out what made and makes manga what it is before they make their own.

Or just stories, full stop. You look at the great writers, artists, leaders in any movement of an art form, and they weren't copying the greats who came before them - they were taking what they'd learned, and applying it to their own works.

On the other hand, there will always be (and always has been) crap artists/writers/musicians/etc., I think. It's just that with the internet, it's not being put in desk drawers, but being stuck online for all the world to see, pretty much. Also, publishers want to try and market to the teenaged, japanophilic market by taking the exotic, Japanese cultural tropes, and combining them with an 'approachable' author type.

That's not to say that there aren't some decent stories around that use a manga style, but are told well by non-Japanese authors. I know some that I keep bookmarked or just kind of have around.

I'm not saying any of the great artists/writers/musicians etc... copied from other before them. To them they expressed themselves in their own way and shouldn't be any different for any manga author or artist. You're right, there is always going to be crap and as long as the internet is up there be those crappy story. The stories where the hero is going to keep running into the battle and never lose but when he do lose is to the main bad guy.

Now the reason wrote this thread was because I grow tired of characters that are in those story. Characters push the story forward, but why don't some make characters seem more real instead of being predictable at almost every turn? I would love to see a story that characters act as real as they can. For in the real world people are almost unpredictable.

That good you found a story that you like that is made by non-japanese author. But I still looking for the book that have a balance between real enough characters and a good story. Sorta picky that way.

ILCAB wrote:Word.
`Art`was once about having something to say, now it`s about copying what you like. People might as well spend some time figuring out what made and makes manga what it is before they make their own.

I agree somewhat, but I don't like the mentality. Its true that there is nothing new under the sun in terms of tropes, plot twists, and character archetypes. No matter how original you think you are, someone, somewhere, in some time in the past already did it, probably better than you did. But this shouldn't be used as an excuse to plagiarize, or, to be a wee bit milder, an excuse to say, "Well, I'd might as well copy because there's nothing new under the sun."

And I think OEL especially can't fall into that mentality because the last thing americans want to come off as are just bad carbon copys of Japan's stories before they even begin to get popular. I haven't read many OEL's(really just Red string and the first chapter of Re:play, so mostly shoujo stuff.) so I really can't say much criticism on specifically on OELs, but if they make cookie cutter stories before they even made the first batch of cookies, people will just say, "Japan's cookies are made the exact same way better." which will just add to the bias toward OELs.

Yeah, American`s usually don`t want to come off as reproductions, but they usually are. The Japanese (and Chinese) idea of receptivity long surpassed America`s stagnation after World War 2. Basically, I would say that the big money in America is still seen as safer to obtain through exploitation of an idea already proven elsewhere, see: American remakes of Asian films, especially the J-Horror trend, Quentin Tarantino, The Wachowskis, American fashion, and bad `OEL`s` that would only sell to kids hungry for a medium that they don`t understand enough to see through the American companies cheap exploits of it. Though I believe good english manga will be made, there just won`t be anything to equal what the original accomplished. Mediums die out in ways, especially ones so progressive, although manga is one of the more open ones, just look at cinema (dead), painting (pretty dead), television (never really did much in America), music (may induce death to those that listen) and much more. Really, let`s look at television, originally seen as a possible artistic force, with possibilities almost as grand as film, what happened to that? It was decided that it made more money as entertainment than art. (We had, hm, Twin Peaks, Hitchock presents(never as good as an actual Hitchcock film), and a few others). What`s to say that peeople here can`t just make television as good as say Korea and Japan? There are many reasons, including environment, history, business, et cetera that make this so, along with a general disinterest towards the medium, which does not attract many real artisits. But, if you look at Japan, and manga, along with anime, it`s regarded as a high art in many places, and accepted, for almost every demographic, but is this in any way true in America? Would Woody Allen or David Lynch read a manga? Lynch might like some of them, but undoubtedly never really got exposed to them in the first place in any proper way. As it is now, manga in America does not attract very much artists.

Anyway, I was probably going to say some other stuff, but on to the point of nothing new, I do actually believe that there`s plenty new under the sun, and that this is especially validated by the fact that the world is a changing place, the internet opened up many new areas, other new technologies are changing the world and it`s experiences as we know it, and even crap `OEL` is giving us new stuff to talk and make manga about. The problem is, nobody here seems to use manga in this way, they`re more concerned about some cheesy story that`s based around what they liked in the other stories they just read, or grew up with. I think there`s semi, or demi new things to talk about, or experience, and completely new manga`s that can be made, but in the first place, completely new manga must not be categorized by every aspect of it being available to pick apart and find no trace behind to a previous work. A completely post-modern experience can be completely new in some respects, but the problem about `Art`here, is that it`s not about that anymore, `Art`as a truth is becoming a post-mortum figure. What artists need as aims are not only success, popularity, and a product, there`s much more, but not many people care.

After all of this, I`d have to say that the most manga could ever do in America as a high-art is make a small wave, or movement, but it`ll never equal Japan, and shouldn`t hope to.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think thats the case with manga... or at least, thats not what I'm seeing happening. "OEL's" do indeed suck now, but if you look at superhero comicbooks, they're subtly looking more and more like manga. I have a few Runaways comics that are pretty much a standard manga format (Small book, 120+ pages) which I see as a sign that Superhero comics are trying to appeal to a newer generation by doing this. And that gets me thinking that maybe American comics are getting slowly getting more into a manga format, and its just in its fledgling stages. Who knows, maybe marvel will become a name thats no longer synonymous with just Superhero comics and branch out to just comics in general(though I think they tried that and failed terribly).

(Edit: Now I remember, They did... with Runaways. -.-" )

I think we just gotta give it time, and things will work itself out. Right now people are in it for the money, but I think sooner or later someone will have a bright idea and think, "Hey! I can probably make even MORE money if I churn out something with slightly more quality." and I'm willing to bet the guy who follows through that idea will be making a lot of money.

Unfortunately, the unwashed masses don't tend to be very discriminating when it comes to their product quality... and the people who would discriminate tend to dismiss it as being something for the unwashed minorities.

Therefore, people who complain represent an almost minute minority, and the OEL creators who could potentially change that trend don't tend to sell so well...

There are certainly environments where comics enjoy a much larger popularity and as an artform been allowed to flourish - Japan is a notable example, as are France, Belgium, Korea, China, Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore. It's becoming more established here, so we can just hope that the small minority grows into a somewhat larger minority, and we may sometime be able to enjoy well-made OELs. There's no need to lose hope - look up a short manga called Onigiri Supahero, a British manga that is... offbeat enough to distinguish itself from many competitors, eastern or western.

Something possibly innovative is also possibly a risk. And people don't like to take risks with lots of money. I think that some (or most) of the first good OEL manga may be small scale or published on the internet.

Money is a big factor in america. If they are making a lot of money by making carbon copies of japanese manga they aren't going to stop or try to make something new because a few people think they should. THey have money and that is all they want. They don't care about the art about the art of it just how to become rich off of it.